In this interview, Speaker of the Kwara state House of Assembly, Dr Ali Ahmad, speaks on some issues of state and national interests. UMAR BAYO ABDULWAHAB brings excerpts:
Election sequence reordering has generated mixed feelings with some Nigerians vilifying the legislature and vice versa. Do you think the amendment was in order? Nigeria as a nation, we do not learn. I don’t know why we engage in politics. I know a lot of people engage in politics to better the lives of the people but in Nigeria, I think politics is an end in itself. We get into politics just to be in politics. Perhaps, to make money or to be visible and be in the reckoning of people like some money bags, who don’t need money but they feel should they be heard and seen. We were in this exact same situation in 2003.
I wrote an opinion, which was unusual for a lawyer like myself but it was deliberate. I was expecting negative reactions. What I was saying was true because nobody has been able to deflect my opinion. In 2002, there was amendment in the then section 15 about reordering of the election sequence and timing. INEC went to court, that is the only difference. Now, it wasn’t INEC. INEC went to Federal High Court. Justice Okeke said National Assembly has the power. INEC appealed and National Assembly also cross appealed on some issues and the Court of Appeal said no, National Assembly doesn’t have the power. So, there is a split.
The best thing to do was to go to the Supreme Court so that we have a finality. It never happened. So, today, we are the same situation. A year before election, there is amendment, some busybodies went to court. Another difference here is that in 2002 that the case was fi led, Justice Okeke waited until National Assembly finished with the passage of the bill before he took charge. Here, Justice Mohammed couldn’t wait, he was so much in a hurry that he did what he did.
It was unprecedented. We have never seen it in any democracy in the whole wide world and not to talk of Nigeria. As I said, we have similar situation but what Justice Mohammed did has never been done. Lawyers would always come but Judge would listen to any lawyer to decide or determine something that is still ongoing an embryo, which might even be still born anyway. So, you don’t kill an embryo before it is born.
So, what Justice Mohammed did is condemnable judicially and everybody should condemn that order. I’m talking now so that nobody tells me that what I’m doing is prejudicial. I’m commenting on the order that he gave, and I have constitutional right as a lawyer and Nigerian to do that.
So, that order that the National Assembly should stop midway is to me unjudicial, unjudicious, un-discretional and we shouldn’t allow it to stand because it will lay a bad precedent. Our decisions and resolutions as politicians do not have presidential value. In fact, it is the opposite. What you did today is not what you would do tomorrow as a politician. But as a judicial officer, what you did today is necessarily what you must do tomorrow.
That is why everybody should condemn it so that in 2023 when there is another amendment to an electoral act, another judge would not come and rush. That precedent should never be allowed to stand really.
What is the implication of the amendment on candidates’ chances of winning elections? That argument, we don’t know, until 2019. But some democrats in both the APC and PDP have said that it is better we have this election to be graded from the bottom up, then the local, to State Assembly, gubernatorial, National Assembly and then Presidential rather than top to bottom. It is logical argument, really. To start that way really is the best if you look at it nationally.
Because if there is a presidential election first and God forbid, something went wrong, before it is put to right, every other person’s tenure has expired. But if you have renewed it from the bottom, the only problem you would have is that of the President alone and all other elections are local. So, problem in one state cannot go to another state but presidential is national.
So, if there is something nationally, it would affect the whole nation and perhaps election may not be able to take place in the next six months. We would be in trouble. But once you have renewed the tenure of the local government chairmen, the governors, State Assemblies and National Assembly, whatever goes wrong with the president, the nation would still survive it. So, it is logical. I’m not making this argument. I buy into it rather than having the presidential (election) first.
People believe that Buhari is not capable in terms of health to pilot the affairs of this country, how do you respond to that? As I said, I’m a local politician. I will bring it down to Kwara State, and that is reflected in Kwara State when the Offa incident happened. We were all saddened and grieved, seeking for some fatherly words to placate our grief. Those words never came until three days after. I received so many calls from everywhere and I even know that the Senate President cut short his visit to come the following day but the federal government that is in control of the security apparatus lost a lot of men including policemen, even if civilian lives are not worth anything to them. I will score the APC or whoever is at the federal government very low.
If I’m in Kwara and this thing happened and the person that is in control of security didn’t do anything until 72 hours later, it is an afterthought. I’m disappointed. And if you asked me to go with whoever is in charge, I will think twice. It is unfortunate.
The issue of autonomy for the state Houses of Assembly still remains the priority of the 8th assembly, how far has that struggle gone? We are very happy this time. We have more than 24 State Houses of Assembly. We had only two or three States voting against it. And I’m sure those states are regretting now. We are sure Mr President will assent to that bill. We have assurances from members the federal executive and members of the kitchen cabinet that Mr President will sign it. When this thing happens, I think Nigerians should celebrate because we need to strengthen institutions. Once you strengthened the National Assembly, you strengthen the office of the Auditor General, the EFCC would just be dealing with some issues.
The EFCC cannot even tackle what goes on in the federal. If you allow me 10 percent, EFCC is not going after federal civil servants who get involved in over 60 percent of corruption nationally. The EFCC is not going to states where governors are Governor Generals.
So, when State Assemblies become independent, when federal and state Auditor generals become independent and looking at state governors at a distance and do their report, they wouldn’t give it to him. Their report would go to the House of Assembly that is again independent. It is Hosanna for Nigeria.
Why is the delaying is assenting to the bill that prohibits sales and dealing in human parts in Kwara State? I’m not part of the executive. We have done our bit. Yes, I heard some commentaries on radio, television and newspapers. I will talk to him (Governor Abdulfatah Ahmed) but if he doesn’t sign it, I think he would return it to the House and if we have the votes, we override his veto. This is something that is very popular with Kwarans and we don’t want people to be going about with human skulls
What is your view on the bill proposing death sentence for hate speech? It is a proposal and we cannot be prescribing death sentence for every known offence. Hate speech is bad enough but I don’t think it deserves death sentence. We should define what hate speech is. It should be both sides. Law is not a respecter of persons.
Do you think capital punishment should also be meted to anyone that engages in corruption? You provide capital punishment as a deterrent and not as an exemplary punishment. Capital punishment should be reserved for those heinous crimes. If Nigerians believe that corruption, which will mean, financial crime has graduated and we need that to control that, so be it. It must be determined by the solution to that problem.
But I don’t think we have taken necessary steps to provide death penalty. As we are today, I will oppose it because you will kill wrong people. You prosecute the people you hate and protect the people you love. I will not support death sentence with that defi nition of corruption.
The British High Commissioner recently described Kwara State House of Assembly as a pacesetter. What is it that the House has done differently under your watch? The British High Commissioner perhaps has been following us. He has made his comment. We are grateful to him. As I said, we are doing our best and we will continue.
Perhaps what is driving us is that we know this term, no single person has done two terms as Speaker. I’m not willing to breach that code. So, I know I have a non-renewable four years and I will never come back. So, we try to do what we can for the opportunity to have been given.
Recently, you passed a resolution on the dissolution of the board and management of the Harmony Holdings. Are you comfortable that the House resolution has not been implemented? The House has done its bit under the Constitution, we cannot tie anybody’s neck and say he must execute. We don’t have power of execution. Kwara people have seen what we have done. We gave everybody fair hearing. In fact, some people are even saying we were not decisive.
We have passed our resolution to the state government, which has set up a committee to look into it. We should allow the committee time. As it is now, it is like infinite time. We have done our bit, we leave the rest to the people of Kwara State. There was an upset in the last local government election in Kwara State, because Kwara used to be fully APC State since 2015.
The opposition made some showing and to them, it’s an achievement. What has changed between then and now that you think can make your party to win? Some people are saying may be the word APC is jinxed, because in other countries political parties that bear that name are losing. First time we brought APC in Kwara, we won but not as much as we expected. May be we should change our name to CPA, CAP, because there is something with the APC, which I will urge our national officers to really look critically at, may be substituting the name.
The FG has released and promised to continue to release names of alleged looters of the public treasury, some of which are in opposition. Can we say that FG is being one sided in the anti-graft battle? Well, I would say whoever is preparing that list is taking Nigeria for a ride. Apart from being one sided, if you ask them why it is one sided, you would see APC members there as those who are not in agreement with them.
So, looters list is opposition list. Those who are opposed to the power brokers in the APC. There are those who have looted and determined looters on whose investigation has been carried out and their names are not on the list. They take Nigerians for a ride and I have never read that read, because I knew what would be there.
As a lawyer, those whose names featured on the alleged looters’ lists are undergoing trial in law courts. What is the implication of this? It is prejudicial to mention the names of those who are still answering to the charges. Because those people can go to the judge and ask that those people should be summoned and come and answer why they have pronounced them guilty before the judge does his job. In preparing those lists, I think those Ministers don’t have a lot of things to do.
How do you think corruption can be curbed in Nigeria? Truth is just one. I have never spared a moment to tell. I delivered a lecture at NUJ Ibadan when this government was less than six months and I told them that you cannot fight corruption in Nigeria the way EFCC of federal government is fighting it. You have only four years. How can you place your number one priority on a platform that you know it is beyond your control judicially?
You cannot fight corruption judicially. What you can do is to sit down. Let Nigerians buy to this war on corruption. Let us name and shame corrupt people, strengthen these institutions that we have told you: the State Assemblies, the National Assembly.
State securities investigated (former President Goodluck) Jonathan over 300 times, yet you cannot get 30 cases sorted out on corruption. So, you strengthen these institutions, get the buy-in of Nigerians, which is zero at the moment; nobody believes you are fighting corruption. When you place that priority on the door of judiciary and after three years you are telling me, we warned you.
If we didn’t warn you, you should know that you cannot fight corruption in four years through the judiciary.
There are alternative ways. Plea bargaining even in the ACJA is not being utilised. In US, plea bargaining is not part of their law but they are utilising it knowing that the criminal justice system is terribly slow. People who even want to do plea bargaining, you said no. I have never seen this kind of country. It is just for you to be reporting it on the pages of newspapers. Some judges are now even attacking the EFCC.
A Federal High Court threw out a case and said I’m not prosecuting any case from the EFCC because you guys are not fighting corruption. If we have a government that wants to fight corruption today, sit down with Nigerians tell them that look corruption is totally forbidden from today. When the citizens abhor corruption and they know that you are really fighting corruption, they are the one that would be reporting it.
And once they report, you have the evidence, you collect your money back, you name and shame him, he is convicted within one month and the President or Governor does whatever he wants. We are just awaiting our time with this one. I have said it since 2015 and I would continue to say it because it pains me. The best person that Nigeria has ever had, since Independence, to fight corruption is Buhari but he has bungled it and I can’t see him correcting it.
